David: I grew up as a Christian in a protestant church. So I

studied the Bible and I went through confirmation and I really

learned the Bible. And in the Bible we were taught, "In the

beginning God created the heavens and the earth." There are

other parts of the Bible where it says that which is eternal is

eternal and that which is temporary is temporary. It does say that

in the Bible in Corinthians. In A Course in Miracles, Jesus really

starts to drive the point home. He says that what God creates is

spirit. That spirit is changeless, eternal, perfect, it's never

ending. And that this world of time and space, the stars the planets

the galaxies the black holes… none of this entire cosmos is

eternal. Through history they would look up at the stars at night

and they would sing love songs, "As long as the stars burn in the

sky, I will be in love with you." And then the physics professors

come along and they say, "Those are just burning gases. If that's as

long as your going to love, you're love is going to burn out." The

physicists teach us that the cosmos is expanding. They are

measuring it and it's actually expanding and they think that at

some point it will reach an equilibrium and it will start to implode

on itself. It will start to collapse and close down on itself. A

Course in Miracles is saying, "Don't worry. God is eternal.

God is prior to this physical universe, this cosmos". What was

Jesus teaching us when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am."? He

was saying that our Christ nature is prior to time. Our Christ

nature is eternal. Jesus was saying, `I and the Father are one. And

what I've done you are going to do. And greater things than I are

you going to do.' In this sense he was saying that, `you are

going to remember the same oneness that I remembered for everybody,

I am just the first one to wake up from this dream.' Jesus never

wanted to be known as a healer of bodies. Have you ever noticed how

all the symptoms of the body would leave around him left and right?

They'd touch the hem of his garment. The blind could see, the lame

could walk. And he's say, "Tell no man". He was not

interested in being known as a physical healer. He had too

important of a message. He was here saying, "My kingdom is not of

this world. I am calling you out of this world." Jesus was saying

our kingdom was in this light. This light and love that God created

a perfect and divine light is our reality. And this world of

images… these are the graven images. We are not talking about

golden calves here,we're talking about stars, planets, bodies… the

entire cosmos is a veil that was drawn over this love. And in order

to release yourself and wake up to the kingdom of Heaven which is

within us, we have to let go of all of this sin, the missing the

mark, the error, the judgments, these concepts that were made up.

So when you really follow the Course you start to see that

metaphysically, God created the heavens, and the ego projected the

earth. The ego is synonymous with sin. The earth is temporary, it

will not last forever. Nothing of time and space will last

forever. In fact, think for a minute about what time is. Time is

increments of measurement. Seconds, minutes, days, hours, weeks,

months, years, centuries, millennium. Do you think you can measure

eternity? Even though there's nothing in this world that shows it,

there's something deep within us that, when we hear

eternal, `Ahhhhh.' Or when we hear forever, or everlasting, there

is something inside of us that just, `Ohhhhh'. That's what the Holy

Spirit is reminding us of.

Participant 1: Are you saying that A Course In Miracles is does not

hold that the God of the universe created the earth because it is an

actual manifestation of the ego?

David: Yes. Yes, because it's temporary. And because God is

eternal, God did not create the earth or the universe. The next

thing that people say is, "If God didn't create it, where did

it come from?" Anyone who just looks at the planets and the

continents, much less this solar system, much less this galaxy, much

less all the galaxies… the scientists are looking with their

powerful telescopes for the source of the Big Bang and what I'm

saying is that the belief that you can separate from your creator,

that's the big bang. That's the most ludicrous idea, that

God could create you perfect and that you could say, `No. Sorry,

that perfection isn't good enough. I'm going to come up with a

little teeny human concept. I'll make myself. And if it's not a

good enough self, then I'll go on Oprah and have a makeover. Or

I'll go to self improvement courses and I'll make a richer little

self. I'll puff this little self up with fame, with pleasure, with

fortune, with all the things of this world. I'll puff this

little self up until I get the self that God created'. But guess

what? That's the tempter, that's the lie of the serpent, that's

the sin, the error to think that you can improve upon what God

created at the very beginning. So, enlightenment is coming back to

the present moment and leaning to accept yourself as Jesus Christ

would see you, as the living Christ. The Course teaches that Jesus

was the first one to wake up from this dream of separation and

duality, and he is calling everyone else to accept the Atonement,

the correction, that he was able to experience for himself.

Participant 2: Well, I believe that God did create the earth, and

that he did create all of us. I believe that.

Participant 3: Me too.

Participant 2: And I believe that because I believe in that, I

believe that everything that happens, happens for a reason.

David: Yes, well I certainly agree that all things work together

for good. What the Course is saying though… we are back to that

original question about forgiveness… in other words, if the

separation did occur and if all this fragmentation of duality,

conflict, war and death had anything to do with God then it would be

everlasting. In other words, God is eternal and what comes from God

is eternal. You don't get apples from orange trees, and you

don't get pears from peach trees. And what the Course is saying is

real simple to follow. It is saying that you don't get physical

[matter] from spirit. In the beginning was the word. That word is

Christ. Christ is the word of God and that is such a beautiful

pristine light that everything that sin or error would try to cover

that light over with is something that needs to be forgiven. Now,

when we talk about forgiveness, there's a part in the workbook where

Jesus says, `You believe you have to forgive the truth. This is

not a course on forgiving the truth. The truth does not need

forgiveness, it's the error … the illusion that needs

forgiveness.' When I was reading the Course for the first time, and

I was going through it… and everyone always talks about `God forgive

me,God forgive me, God forgive me' and I get to the part in the

course and it says, "God does not forgive for he has never

condemned. And there must be condemnation first, before forgiveness

is necessary." I had to read that one twice. But listen to it, let

it sink into your heart for a minute. "God does not forgive for he

has never condemned. And there must be condemnation first, before

forgiveness is necessary."

Participant 3: I was asking a little while ago, I was trying to

ask you about sin and sin nature. I believe when you are born into

this world, you are born into this world with a nature that

doesn't want to serve God. And I believe you have to make a choice

in this world.

David: I agree totally.

Participant 3: Not just a choice to serve God, but a choice to

accept that Jesus Christ was actually born of a woman, actually

lived on this earth just like we were, was actually tempted in every

way that we were yet he didn't sin, and is the only way, the only

way, that you are going to get to the Father which is where

everybody needs to be. I believe in the creation thing, I believe

that God the Father had his son Jesus Christ there before creation.

Because the Bible says, like Jesus told the Pharisees, "Before

Abraham was, I am". Jesus always said, `I do nothing unless

I hear my Father doing it, or unless I see my Father doing it.' So

everything he did, he did in submission to his Father. And he did

acknowledge that his Father was God, his father was the Creator, his

Father was the one that was doing all the miracles through him, his

Father was the one that did everything through him.

David: Sure, and that's the beautiful thing. What I find in my

life is that the peace that passeth the understanding of the world

is an actual experience. So what I said at the beginning was,

that's why regardless of what belief is, regardless of what the

theologies are, and there are a lot of different ones on this earth

you know that as well as I do… there are a lot of different

claims about what God is and so on and so forth… just think for a

minute that true religion is inner peace. In other words, if I

profess a religion and I have anger in my heart… If I profess a

religion and I have hurt or pain or guilt then I am not living up to

the standard that Christ set. Christ was an example of love. He

loved beyond everything that this world offers. Christ is an

example of salvation. Christ offers salvation because, even in the

garden of Gethsemane, when Peter cuts the ear off of the soldier who

comes to get Jesus, he puts the ear back on. We are talking about a

love that is so transcending that it goes beyond this world

entirely. And that we are in total agreement on. What I've had to

do as I've gone through this experience is… if I have hurts or

angers or things that come up in my life, I've had to learn to give

them over to the Holy Spirit. I've had to learn to say, `Okay,

thank you for the theology, thank you for the Bible, thank you for

the scripture, thank you for the guiding light you've given me, but

I am going to have to be a demonstration of that light that's going

to be showing that Christ is real. I'm going to have to be his

hands and feet on this earth. I'm not going to have to go around

and profess it while my peace of mind is not there. So, what I'm

talking about…

Participant 3: When Jesus was in the temple and he was driving them

out, you don't think he was a little angry there? When he was

driving them out of the temple when he had the whip and he was

driving them out, he wasn't happy.

David: What I would say with that is, let's look at his

teachings.

If he said on the cross, "Forgive them for they know not what

they do" if he says, "Bless those who curse you" if he says,

"Forgive your enemies" if he says, "forgive, seven times seven"

what I am saying is, whatever interpretations you have… Remember

when he taught the parable of the prodigal son who squandered all

his father's inheritance? He felt like he couldn't even go back

because he felt that his father wouldn't even take him on as a hired

servant, and the father ran down and killed the fatted calf and put

shoes on his feet. Jesus was teaching that God is a God of perfect

love, transcending the law of the old testament where God seemed to

zap a tribe here or there and was kind of anthropomorphic, kind of a

human God. But what Jesus was teaching is that God is a God of

perfect love. The other thing that Jesus taught was, "I and the

Father are one". We remember that teaching. So if God is a God

of love and Christ is a Christ of love, the true meaning of Christ

is a pure love that literally transcends sin. That literally, be of

good cheer, I have overcome the world, satan is underfoot… that's

a transcending love. Now, what we need to do is we need to really

be honest here. We need to ask, `How can I be the salt of the

earth… how can I be the peace of the world, if I'm not peaceful?'

You see how that works. In other words, how can I be a beacon of

God's love and a beacon of Christ if I'm not loving, if I have

grievances or if I get into distractions, the ways of the flesh?

Then I am not going to be a witness or an example for God or

Christ. So what I am saying here is that I had to look at the

theologies and everything that I was raised with and I had to

say, `It's experience that counts. I need to be honest with myself

if I still have those hurts.' Now what I am speaking of as

salvation is an experience, not as a belief. I know many sincere

Christians who will profess belief in Jesus Christ, and will profess

the very things that you said. I think it's a wonderful start, but

the Bible also teaches that we have to have a renewing of our mind

to be in accord with God.